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Poll: 4th Tripartite Meeting
During the 4th Tripartite Talk, GJMM has been immensely pressurized to focus only on the creation of Gorkhaland, besides, the conclusion of the Meeting seems to be only TALK on POLITICAL LEVEL in next round. Do you think 4th Tripartite Talk has been successful?
45 minutes with Dr. H B Chettri
Dr. Harka Bahadur Chettri, most eminent personality of Kalimpong and intellectual of Darjeeling Hills. His single article on local newspaper outsell the entire news of the day. He is most active reviewer in Darjeeling hills on political, social and economic front.CLICK HERE to Listen to the audio of Dr. H. B. Chhetri.
DT Correspondent: You are a literary person and what inspired you to join politics?Dr. HB Chettri:
There is hardly any difference between politics and literature only sensible people take up literature, its probably highest activities of best mind. Its awareness, awareness about the situation, awareness about society, awareness about politics or whatever activities that human mind indulges itself into. Broadening the horizon of sensibility of people, so, sensible people they get very easily attracted by politics, after all its politics, which dictates, how a society should take turn, in which direction, is all decided by politics. All good literature I believe, is political, so many revolutions have been initiated or influenced or inspired by literature. Politics and literature goes side by side, if you are into literature, definitely you are into politics.DT Correspondent: What was the position of Mr. Subash Ghisingh and GNLF before 86’s agitation and your relation with GNLF?
Dr. HB Chettri: He was not an essential commodity, he was like just spices, people used to go listen his speeches, people enjoyed listening him, he was different from rest of the crowd, he had audacity to speak thing that normal politicians would not speak about. He was reflecting the grievances of the people and one important thing why he succeeded was that people had enough grievances, is not that because of Subash Ghisingh people came to know about state of affairs of the hills, No!, people were worried, they had problems, there were distant fights with system, they felt humiliated. All these things were there but what was lacking was a person to articulate that in the place where it matters. He was able to hit the exact impulse or the nerve of people, he felt that if you talk emotion, then there is where you can translate their feeling into popular supports and that’s what he did. And for a moment I was also taken into same emotion. I was also drown, everyone was drown, everyone had his or her reason to support him, he did not supply the reasons, reasons were there with the people, an unemployed felt that with Subash Ghisingh, I’ll get job, with the artists they felt that there’ll have forum from where they can speak to world at large etc.
DT Correspondent: What was your role during the movement of Gorkhaland in 1986?
Dr. HB Chettri: I was a member and I addressed lot of meetings locally, I was actively involved till 1987, probably month of July, Subash Ghisingh came to Kalimpong, we had huge gathering at Dr. Grams homes ground, there he said that, in fact, it was already been worked out between him and Central Govt. that he would accept DGHC, and the speech he gave that day had a very mellowed down tone. DT Correspondent: Do you justify the Gorkhaland agitation of 1986?
Dr. HB Chettri: I fully justify the 86-agitation. People had their vision such agitation was needed. What are the essential elements for success of any agitation of this magnitude, the elements are popular supports, in the first place, which Subash Ghisingh had, second ingredient, a towering leader ship, unquestionable, which Subash Ghisingh had, third intellectual support, the ideological support, which agitation was missing. And here lies the conspiracy theory, why right from beginning, he made it a point to discourage intellectuals from entering into agitation, why did not allow the streamline the movement! Popular movement is like flood and if there is good engineer he can produce electricity out of that flood, he can canalize into proper direction otherwise it will wipe away an entire civilization and that is what happened. Nobody’s there to canalize that human resource in proper direction.DT Correspondent: Do you think it was appropriate to accept DGHC after such a violent agitation of 86’ agitation?
Dr. HB Chettri: Absolutely not, how DGHC was accepted, the meeting was held among 149 executives and all representative members of GNLF to decide whether we should accept DGHC or continue the agitation, now I ask a question, why only two alternatives, either accept this or go for the movement… why?.. Were there no other alternatives, which were much better, which were much closure to statehood or which would have been to stepping stone towards getting Statehood.
Just before the meeting was called, we had 40 days ‘bandh’ in Darjeeling hills, which had totally paralyzed people in the hills. Under some one’s suggestion to Mr. Ghisingh that tempo of people is very high, their aspiration is very high, if you just show the DGHC accord, they will not be satisfied probably they will protest against you, so you take such measure, make such strategy that they’ll come to a point where people will say OK, we just want peace, we don’t want anything else. Only after bringing people to that low, these options were placed forward.DT Correspondent: The incident that occurred during the process to burn clause 7 of treaty of 1950 between India and Nepal, in 27 July 1986 at Kalimpong, what do you think about that incident? Do you think it was necessary?
Dr. HB Chettri: It was absolutely unnecessary, because treaty of 1950 and article 7, which Subash Ghisingh claimed makes us reciprocal in India was totally misconstrued because treaty of 1950 is not a treaty of territory, it is a treaty of peace and friendship. Article 8 of 1950 treaty that cancels all others previous treaties, agreements. Ghisling claimed that Darjeeling becomes ‘Nomans’ land and Kalimpong becomes leasehold land, without realizing that was a treaty of peace and friendship, and all the previous treaties of peace and friendship were canceled by that treaty, not of territory. So, it was absolutely misconstrued.
These territories (Darjeeling hills) were under the rule of one and other at times but the people were sameDT Correspondent: Do you think so, that there was conspiracy behind burning this treaty?
Dr. HB Chettri: There was strong business lobby in Nepal, which wanted this treaty to be canceled. How it would benefit them because using that treaty only labourers and peasants were crossing over to India whereas industrialist were going to Nepal and they started capturing the entire economy of Nepal, so, some strong business lobby back in Kathmandu made use of our man, Mr. Ghisingh and that’s how he suddenly came with 1950 treaty and article 7 .DT Correspondent: Did you have parties support participating in DGHC election? What were the reasons for loosing election?
Dr. HB Chettri: The famous philosopher Burten says that ignorance is the hallmark of eminence in politics, if Gandhi had fought an election as an independent candidate and if Gotse had the Congress ticket, he would have won the election with thumping majority because politics is not a things of individual, is always thing of organisation. Many people asking me, you write, you criticize, you comment them but do nothing, you are a paper tiger, if you have the courage, get down, enter the field, fight election. And I thought, Yes! It makes sense.
But then in democracy, what quality you have is a secondary importance, how much money you have, how much organisation you can mobilize, how much people you can terrorise, it’s on basis of that. So, it was the foregone conclusion that I would loose, but I made a point that tomorrow people will not have opportunity to blame me that I did not participate, you just stayed away from actual activities. So, I tried and I saw that’s not the way to do it. DT Correspondent: What was your objective to join ABGL (Akhil Bharatiya Gorkha-league)? And do you have any contribution towards this party?
Dr. HB Chettri: Definitely, only after I joined ABGL, ABGL was revived, it was lying in cold storage before that.
Why I thought of joining ABGL that there was a strategic point, what I realized was, what Ghisingh did, how he succeed, look at the flag, he took away the ‘Khukuri’, from Gorkha league flag, he took away the red colour, GNWO used the lotus, so, one by one symbols were transferred to GNLF and the Gorkha-League flag became empty. So, I thought, probably sentimentality is the primary thing in politics, ABGL had a sentiment, it has a history, it was the first party in independent India, in the history of Gorkhas, but later on, ABGL leaders could not rise upto the expectations of people, that’s how it failed. And I thought, Gorkha-league is the proper forum from where we can highlight our regional problems to national level. So, that’s why I joined ABGL.
Later on I realized the bitter fact, in politics, whichever party you talk about, they just differ from the flag and symbols, they are the just the same people, most of them. DT Correspondent: Do you know Mr. Ghisingh was always against Gorkha-league since the beginning of his political career?
Dr. HB Chettri: I know Subash Ghisingh since long time back, before he became what he is known as today’s Subash Ghisingh. He had started “Swatantra Nepali”, he was strongly against the Gorkha-league. He used to say that what is Gorkha-league!, then, you have to have Chor-league, police-league, Gorkha is a soldier, and how can we start a political party in the name of soldier, then, you have to have “chowkidar-league, “darwan-league”, “peon-league”, something like that. He even wrote some beautiful verse like – “ma janmindai nepali, ma bachunjel nepali, ma mare pachi mero chiyan mathi fulne saipatri ra godawari pani nepali” quite a touching one.. DT Correspondent: He was Nepali now converted into Gorkha.
Dr. HB Chettri: YesDT Correspondent: Do you believe GNLF was initiated to counter ABGL?
Dr. HB Chettri: In some sense, but more than that, how I look at the rise of Subash Ghisingh is in different manner, that was the time when Jyoti Basu and left front were ruling the roost in West Bengal, in the Centre there was Congress with Rajiv Gandhi. And lots of places where separatist movements were happening, and Jyoti Basu always used to tongue Rajiv Gandhi that you don’t know how to govern or rule, that’s why you have so many problems around, look at us, we have people from different communities, in Darjeeling there are Gorkhas, but we have managed them such a manner that they are happy. So Rajiv Gandhi was looking for some kind of headache for Jyoti Basu. And that was the time when he suddenly came across our man, and I am sure, he was picked up by Rajiv Gandhi.
In fact, there was write-up in ‘Illustrate Weekly’, charging Subash Ghising as RAW agent, and one of GDF (Gorkha Democratic Front) meeting, Madan Tamang distributed the Xerox copies of that ‘Illustrated Weekly’.
Then the role of suddenly from nowhere this “Ghan-tauke” appeared, Indrajit Khular, now we know what role he had and how he got his payback share.
DT Correspondent: What about the Pranta Parishad?
Dr. HB Chettri: That was the real organisation, which had initially sown the seed of separate state, it really educated the people but it benefited Mr. Ghisingh.
DT Correspondent: How Subash Ghising benefited from Pranta Parishad?
Dr. HB Chettri: We can theories that, that is how probably Subash Ghisingh came into being. The central government was looking for someone who is less troublesome, can be manipulated easily, less intelligent, a person with less vision. And in Pranta Parishad there were people who could have really taken to the hilt, they would not have stopped before achieving at least a genuine Union Territory or Sixth Schedule, which today Subash Ghisingh is talking about, because they knew, they would study, in fact, Scottish pattern of autonomy was already there with Gorkha-league. So, all these parties were demanding something which was only one step below separate state.
But what DGHC came into being was just the development agency, it did not even empower the legislative and financial powers to the council, it’s a ‘Jilla Parisha’ with much amputated one.
In fact, there was a write-up, I wrote it somewhere mentioning his reference, there was writing statement by J K Datta, who was the retired IPG police of West Bengal as – “Subash Ghising, the best beat for Indian interest” was the title of the article. Subash Ghisingh has time and time proved that he’ll remain loyal to Kolkata and Delhi.
It is also Civil Society that is totally lacking in the Hills. Are we not responsible for making Subash Ghising a Subash Ghisingh that he has become, he was our dream, he was our undisputed leader, but instead of questioning leader, instead of making him work for the interest of people, we started praising him as if he is a god, so anybody, with undue respect is bound to become spoilt, So equally we are to blame, it is not only his fault.
DT Correspondent: Your articles always creates the sensations among Nepali community, is it sort of political awareness programme? And are you satisfied with it?
Dr. HB Chettri: It’s definitely awareness, sometime I feel that what’s the use of writing because it never translate into action like people are same, its like giving same medicine again and again and then suddenly realize but it’s the same symptom, so, I am bound to give same medicine, and at least, what happens is, good thing about an article is, you may not see the result immediately but at least if you call a thief a thief, the thief will not have audacity to say that no I am a gentle man, I am a real leader, at least he’ll be on the defensive and that is what precisely my article attempts to do. I call a thief a thief….
DT Correspondent: Do you believe in violence in name of Gorkhaland? What is your opinion about UGRF?
Dr. HB Chettri: Violent in any form should be rejected, outright. Because very easy to bring in arms but once it enters, you do not know what type of corruptions it leads a person to because the person feels empowered now. And very difficult to remove arms once it gets in.
So far UGRF violent is concerned, Ajay Dahal used to come to me for advice, long time ago. He stopped coming to me because I suggested him violent is not the resort, besides, he has so many enemies, with whom he would fight, GNLF, state government, Central government is there. And is that the solution! You educate the people, and the time will come when people themselves it should come from within not from without.
DT Correspondent: What sort of advices he used to ask?
Dr. HB Chettri: Basically, he used to come for applications written to the Chief minister, to the prime minister, to the President regarding Gorkha problems.
DT Correspondent: Once you had been attached with problems of Bhutanese refugees, what extend did you help them? Why did you quit from that issue?
Dr. HB Chettri: When the Bhutanese refugees movement began, I initially started writing about them in Sunchari around 1993, they read the papers and they really impressed by my writings, so the leaders started coming to me and they started organizing programs, I started visiting their camps, whenever I had holidays. Later on, I realized that Stop-Gap kind of programme won’t do, if I have to, then I have to plunged into head long, full fledge, but I was working in School, so, I took six months leave without pay to join their movement. And we had long Appeal March, I was arrested in 17 January 1996 for 10 days. We came out, agitation continued, by July my six months leave was over, I had to come back to join School.
Why this movement, I don’t say failed, but did not have the desired impact, was that there were nine parties within refugees, they had complex among themselves, I saw that, they were their own worst enemies, even during crisis time they could not come together and keep away whatever small difference they had. And our jobs was to create awareness and enough awareness had been created, in fact, I went to the extend of meeting the prime minister of Nepal in 1995, when Manmohan Adhikari was the prime minister, he was nice man, we had a hope on him but he died premature death. After that Mr. Dewba came, I met Dewba also in 1996 when moist movement was in peak. He was in such a pathetic condition; I lost all my hopes, like Nepal could do nothing about it.
When the entire Butanese diplomacy, politics was single-mindedly behind the Refugees issue, they were trying to project these refugees as illegal immigrants to the outside worlds, that time Nepal did not even had a foreign secretary to deal with the issue, forget rest of other countries. How it could get the resolution, it was impossible; it was because of weak diplomacy of Nepalese.
In fact, Nepal was benefiting from refugees issue, numbers of NGOs, INGOs came in, with the INGOs the dollars came in, and with that money, inhabitants of Nepal got many employments, their areas were developed, if you visit some of the camps, they have the best sewerage system, they have better water facilities, purified water than rest of Nepal.
DT Correspondent: Why the political parties of Darjeeling hills, especially GNLF never supported the Bhutanese refugee’s issue? What could be the reason for that?
Dr. HB Chettri: I don’t know, who suggested Subash Ghisingh, that is the reason why, character of Subash Ghisingh comes up very fishy man. Suddenly, he started talking about greater Nepal. There are agents of greater Nepal and this statement of Subash Ghisingh made it so difficult even for Mr. Narbahadur Bhandar and Mr. Pawan Chamling to support this movement. Even we were branded as agents of Nepal.
But just before that Mr. Khumble Dorje, used to be Home Secretary in Bhutan, that man with some of its officials had come to Darjeeling to meet Ghisingh with gifts from Bhutan.
Because Darjeeling had a different kind of strategic importance, it could have exerted more pressure than United Nations, routes are common here, and they were scared of tangible immediate danger in the corridor rather than what is happening in international arena.
DT Correspondent: Bhutanese refugees are being transferred to United State, is it positive move for refugees?
Dr. HB Chettri: Definitely not, though, we may be having fantastic ideas about foreign countries, oh! If they get a chance to go America then they really be benefited but that’s not so. They will be treated like refugees, they will loose their identity, their landscape will be disfigured and for those who are staying back in Bhutan, life becomes more difficult for them. Bhutan will learn a lesson that 10 years down the line, they can expel few more, another 50 thousands and some other countries will volunteer to take them, this is not the good thing, it is encouraging an autocrat to do more mischief, which is not the what the United Nations and human right’s philosophy is about, let them have equal place, they will prove their bona-fide if they go back to Bhutan.
DT Correspondent: What do you say about Sixth Schedule? Do you support the issue?
Dr. HB Chettri: Nobody will oppose any arrangement, which is better than what we have now. Sixth Schedule is definitely better arrangement but where we are missing the point is that, is it the Sixth Schedule that Subash Ghisingh is talking about? Is not the Sixth Schedule at the very first place, it is the 371J.
DT Correspondent: Let us suppose we get the genuine Sixth Schedule…
Dr. HB Chettri: We will not, there is where the difficulties lies, because we have technical difficulties, we have to have 60 per cent of tribal population, we do not even have 34 per cent tribal population. So this will be rejected in the floor of the house.
In that case, it need lots of amendment, either we should be declared entirely as tribal, all of us. There is also no possibility, because we have National Tribal Commission Board, which decides what should be the criteria to declare one as tribal.
The essence of Sixth Schedule is article 242A of Indian constitution, which is specifically meant for North East, why North East! Because you may not be able to identify one Naga to another Naga, but they have large numbers of minor Naga tribes, which customs, traditions, languages, rituals, everything different from other one. So, they have their own rule to settle disputes, there are large minority tribes within tribes, so to protect the existing Laws, rules, by which their life is being governed, the Sixth Schedule has come into being there.
DT Correspondent: What happens if Sixth Schedule is implemented in Darjeeling hills now, will General people suffer?
Dr. HB Chettri: Definitely, not only suffer, there will be a civil war kind of thing, if you are a general, you will be deprived from everything.
DT Correspondent: So, you don’t support Sixth Schedule?
Dr. HB Chettri: Definitely not, in this condition, in this format, it should be out of question, it would simply be a weapon to divide our people and forever to kill the demand for separate state.
All, right thinking people should oppose this, in the present form. If it comes in amendment form, it is OK.
DT Correspondent: How do you think about the role of CPI-M in Sixth Schedule issue? Are they honest towards the people of Darjeeling hills?
Dr. HB Chettri: CPI-M and honesty are mutually excluding each other, wherever there is CPI-M, there is no honesty, wherever there is honesty there is no CPI-M. Why I tell you, in 1985, it was Ananda Pathak, MP, who placed the bill for autonomy, which was just one-step below the separate state. There were altogether 60 MPs representing CPI-M, Tripura, Kerela, WestBengal, 60 MPs. Whenever CPI-M takes the decision, it was politburos, which decides it, they have whip and once the whip decides, all the members should be present and they should vote. Do you know how much votes were there in favour of Anand Pathak’s bill? Only 17, where as there were 60 CPI-M MPs. So, that speaks everything.
DT Correspondent: The recent remarks on tripartite agreement of Sixth Schedule for Darjeeling hills by Mahendra P Lama, what is your response?
Dr. HB Chettri: Well, I wrote many articles on this issue as soon as Sixth Schedule agreement was made available to me. I went through the agreement and found nothing, it’s was the same 19 departments, which DGHC had, and it’s the same 19 departments which Sixth Schedule is getting. GNLF camps feels that, I am born opponent, without realizing, what I have written is on the policy issue, not an individual, I take a stand considering the aspiration of people, which Mahendra P Lama also did the same thing.
DT Correspondent: CPRM, one of the components of PDF, is supporting Sixth Schedule, what would you say about that?
Dr. HB Chettri: These people will never make it into politics, precisely because of this, they don’t want to be antagonistic to GNLF at the same time, they can not go full throatily go against the CPI-M. Its kind of survival politics they are playing.
DT Correspondent: In your opinion, why this Sixth Schedule is not being placed in Parliament even after tripartite agreement?
Dr. HB Chettri: We do not have leaders that have assertive, which makes differences upon their visits. Even Subash Ghisingh was unaware of Sixth Schedule while signing accord. When he came back, there was crackers being burst, he said, what have you understood and bursting this crackers, Even I have not understood what Sixth Schedule is.
And he was speaking truth. He did not understand what is was. So, what does it explains that whenever he raises demand, he is asked to raise that demand either by state or by Centre. He is just playing at the hand of state and centre. Whatever posture he shows here, is to save his organisation, its not genuine posture.
DT Correspondent: What about the Election in Darjeeling Hills?
Dr. HB Chettri: Well, again the question of everything comes back to civil society now. Are there people strong enough to come to street and ask what is this? We have been deprived of our democratic rights, until and unless every man on the street ask this question, the leaders by themselves will never do a thing, because it suits them, why unnecessary go for election, and spend more money, when you are already been planted as the administrator.
The first and foremost thing is civil society, my writing precisely tries to do that create a society. Unfortunately, we do not have civil society.
You meet a man in the street and ask him what is your opinion about Sixth Schedule? First, he will try to find out, which camp you belong, its like diabetic patient, he looks at chart what to eat or what not. So, he first decides that what to say or what not. He tries to coax something out of you to find out which camp you belong to, if you are from opposite camp, he shares his feeling, if you belong to pro camp, accordingly he will speaks with you. That way, there is no civil society.
DT Correspondent: In your opinion, what is difference between the word Gorkha and Nepali?
Dr. HB Chettri: One is made of 2 and half words and other is three words, that’s the only difference. It is foolish to talk about
DT Correspondent: It was also an issue of Gorkha or Nepali…
Dr. HB Chettri: We are expert in making issues out of non-issue. 20 years ago, which had never been a problem to us, someone suddenly comes, who is not even from university, who is not even a linguist, who knows nothing about languages, who has not researched a word about language and that man suddenly comes and he says we should call ourselves Gorkha, how come one man dictates in history.
DT Correspondent: What is your opinion towards the merger of Darjeeling hills and Sikkim? Do you see any possibility?
Dr. HB Chettri: Oh!, That’s the only alternative, the most viable alternative could be that. But then there are two boss, neither Subash Ghising is prepared to accept that greater Sikkim nor Chamling is going to sacrifice his privileges or whoever comes in place of Chamling. Otherwise, this is one place, where river separates two people with same customs, same tradition, same language, same culture, same history, even matrimonial relationship, working relationship, everything is same, what is different, only the name is different, one is Darjeeling another is Sikkim.
And we are forcefully attached with the people in the same state, when we go down, we do not understand a thing about them, as if it’s like another country.
There is a possibility, if in both the places some visionary politicians come.
People of Sikkim have an idea, once the merger happens then all the facilities that Sikkim is getting, will go to Darjeeling people because they are cleverer than we are and eat away all our benefits. They do not realize that we have enough resources, even by West Bengal government records, we have paid revenues of 150 cores to West Bengal government in 2003 and in return, we are just getting Rs 30 crore for development.
It has to start from leadership level, probably government of India also do not want that there should be an amicable kind of relationship between Darjeeling and Sikkim. Otherwise, just imagine, Subash Ghisingh inviting Chamling over Tea or Chamling inviting Subash Ghisingh over Dinner, what a wonderful relationship would have developed, then automatically people would have started thinking in that line, it would have easy for both of these people to suggest this idea.
DT Correspondent: What about R Moktan, president of Sikkim National Front?
Dr. HB Chettri: He is the one-man army, poor fellow and it’s just academic until now because you have to have followers in popular level, ordinary men’s level. He just started.
DT Correspondent: Would you like to campaign for the issue? Which you said the best solution to get away from Bengal?
Dr. HB Chettri: I did initially even before Mr. R Moktan has started, I have written three articles in “Sunchari” (Nepali daily news) about Sikkim and Darjeeling merger. I have done some research, interesting thing is that, if Darjeeling goes back to Sikkim, we will have railhead, Sikkim does not have railhead, a state without railhead.
There is hardly any place left for Sikkim to develop, the topography is much difficult than what we have here, there is lots of rooms in Darjeeling for development. Sikkim has produced so many engineers, so many doctors, some of them are going without jobs, we do not have ours, in fact, they can come as deputation in our side instead of getting scared of us. They have manpower we have the prospect.
What we lack is strong body of writing, a historical writing, and then present prospect, we need to have batteries of writers, writing in a political front, in economic front, in social front, that how it should come about, why it is important. Darjeeling alone such a small place can not have a separate state, we have to have a ranks of files ministers portfolios, it will be more expensive, but where as with Sikkim if we merge it, Sikkim will have a an extended area and it will become more stable.
But Sikkim can never be homeland of Gorkha because it has the history of Chogyal, which can not wipe out, so far the Gorkhas thinks secure in India and loyal towards it, is homeland and that only Gorkhaland can give.
DT Correspondent: Any suggestion through this news site to the people of Darjeeling hills, specially people residing outside Darjeeling hills?
Dr. HB Chettri: Well, What I would say, though everything seems gloomy in the hills, in the political front, I don’t want to sound like some alarmist, pessimist that everything coming to an end, to say that would be, to express your own ignorance, ignorance of history, there were times when more, much darker ages were there, people suffered much more than what we have suffered today. 15 – 20 years are the brief time in the life of society. So, if this fails, nature will head to have vacuum, and I am sure definitely something positive will come up. We will outgrow from this. Definitely, some good sense will prevail, some better people will come, and leads us positive direction. And for that, we have to look upcoming present generation, the children who are studying in schools, they are our target. So try to make them rational, give them proper education, let us have a tradition of good education, and then if you have skill, you become a human resource, you will find yourself way out, you don’t look at some leader. That is what needed, that’s what we need to inculcate our coming generation.
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